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Maybe I shouldn't have used the word 'rape'.....
But I was reading FrumPunk's post in response to my post and got thinking. (Here's his post: http://frumpunk.wordpress.com/2008/11/01/changing-priorities/)
He talks about how all his life he was taught to avoid the opposite sex and then one day he's actually encouraged to interact.
While it may be kind of crazy, maybe it's a little bit better the way FrumPunk experienced life than the Charedi way (I like the term because it bunches together anyone in Black, but maybe what I really mean is Chassidish).... Although, I wish I had a little bit more insight into that world. But I don't - so I'm working off of perception and general knowledge here. (it's not like anyone is looking for parenthetical citations here)
I've actually had conversations about the following with my friends. We can't help but wonder how Charedi people deal with this.
How does a Charedi couple go from ZERO interaction with the opposite sex to suddenly being forced to go not just to First Base on their wedding night, but allll the way home?
Is it scary for the two individuals involved?
I don't want to get graphic here (there is plenty on the internet for that!), but how does it work???
I know that some ModOrth and other couples are fully shomer before chuppah - but it's not like the chuppah is the first time they're seen together in public or first time they've had a real conversation or some laughs together (ok, maybe they're not having a conversation or sharing jokes under the chuppah, but you catch my drift, right?).
So how does it work for a couple that has met maybe a half dozen times and mostly at her family's dining room table?
Saturday, November 1, 2008
are charedi girls raped?
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14 comments:
I grew up and live in the BP/Flatbush area.
Even though instances of child molestation and rape are high in our community due to the fact that it's covered up, not discussed and people know they can get away with it.
But to the original question , no girls don't get raped.
They are taught right before the wedding the hard core stuff, although they are somewhat naive on their wedding night.
And by hard core Chassidim it doesn't make much of a difference either way since they are taught their main task is to be a baby boomer, and have as many kids as possible before their child bearing years are over.
They tell their wives it's not something to be discussed or enjoyed, and tell them their main chore is to have as many babies possible.
Mostly it's without consideration to the women opinion or health, And without consideration financially.
I think I may have top write a post about this. It is pretty insane. I guess its good I had the college experience.
I actually know some girls that were really scared of their wedding night. Even heard stories about some that refused to do it on their wedding night and then later got divorced.
But then again I think they have a maturity, since they aren't taught all about it in a young age, their taught when they can handle the information, so they recognize it as something 2 people do when they get married, and it doesn't seem that hard to them. It just becomes like doing any other thing, like cooking or cleaning.
I read a crazy story where the girl basically started crying when she realised it was about to happen, and he ended up calling her kallah teacher to come over and convince her to go ahead with it.
That shouldnt happen.
wow, that's crazy.
But I thought there would be some natural thing to it. That even if it may seem crazy, there should be some pull or attraction that will make it seem easier to do.
Thats the point. There shouldn't be this situation where you're still basically strangers on your wedding night.
what happens if the couple decides to take things slow? can they do that? or do they have to have sex that night?
Material Maidel: it's preferable that they have it that night, but they don't have to. After all, sometimes the girl could be a Nidah at that time, and then they will wait.
I've been thinking about this, and it reminded me of something. I always wondered whether just doing it is enjoyable, or whether it's because it's with a specific person. Cause for these charedi people that don't really know each other, perhaps their able to do it because doing it alone can be something they want to do. I mean I'm always hearing about people wanting to do it. So perhaps that alone is enough?
Wooh. Just came across this post.
Ok- trying to not be too graphic, but this is going to be a long comment. I dislike all these rumors about charedim and wedding nights.
A. Not all charedim meet only at their 'dining room table'- that would be chassidim. And as I am not chassidish, I can't comment.
B. These 'stories' that 'everyone' talks about- some of them could be true, and some couldn't. If you go to a responsible kallah teacher, and you are a mature adult person ready to get married- you are NEVER forced. And, it is SUPPOSED to be enjoyable for the woman- it's a halacha.
C. You may have never touched before your wedding night- but no one says that you are FORCED into it. Chas V'Chalila. In fact, most kallah teachers will tell you that you probably will be too exhausted to do anything major that night.
D. If you do have questions about how charedim get married with being shomer before their wedding- ask a rabbi or kallah teacher- don't read up on these rumors- most ARE RUMORS!
First, even chasidish boys and girls meet and HEAR a lot about the other. They are shay--but they share that too.
I was told that it has to be stressed to Kallahs that many times the chossan is whiped out from the wedding (or the girl is), and there is no problem with postponing.
Part of any decent chasan classes talks to them about being sensitive.
True, it is new, but hopefully it is new to both of them! I should think the chassan would be petrified at having to be sure to put on a good act!
After my charedi friend in Brooklyn got engaged, she shared the following:
She and her chatan had met a few times, always surrounded by other family members. When it was time to go to city hall to get the city wedding license, her (extremely frum, Chassidishe father) encouraged her to pack a picnic and if it should take a few extra hours to get the license, because the two of them had stopped on the way (at a very public location, of course, like a park), no one would pay any attention.... After all, explained her father, how does she think he and her mother got to know each other before the wedding?
Cute, eh? Apparently it's not at all black and white (really, no pun intended), and they understand the need for intimacy just as well as the next guy.
There's this documentary called Leaving the Fold (http://www.leavingthefold.net/) which follows several young people who grew up religious but left orthodoxy.
There is one Charedi guy who describes his first sexual relationship as a rape, as much for him as for his new bride.
Someone I knew who left that life eplained that he had me his wife only once besides the chuppah and wouldn't have recognized her on the street. He knew nothing.
After the wedding, a rabbi/doctor/instructor came over to their apartment and told him what if was about. The wife had been told a couple of days before. They were given some valium to relax.
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