Thursday, April 29, 2010

do jewish girls have more guilt? (& why we act like sluts)

I was having dinner with some friends the other night (all jewish, all girls) when one particularly non-shy girl started telling us all about her insane weekend.
Really insane weekend.
Different guy every night.
Two of whom she barely knew.
(gotta say though - she has good taste - they were all super hot as evidenced by their facebook profile pics she showed us on her blackberry - and no, she wasn't lying about any of these boys - there was also evidence of her short-term liaisons with them...)
But no matter hot much of a stud a guy is, any girl's got some nerve to do the walk of shame over the weekend...
But to walk it three times...
The rest of us were kind of shocked by her very colorful indiscretions.
I don't think I've ever seen so many jaws drop in one conversation.
As we looked at one another while she told us story after story, we knew we were all secretly thinking the same thing - SLUT!
There was complete silence for a good minute after she told us about guy #3.
None of us knew what to say.
But then one girl decided to break the ams (awkward moment of silence).
And admitted that she too has had some rather interesting adventures with members of the opposite sex...
Because the truth is...
What girl hasn't?
Ok, I'm sure there are girls out there who will literally be 'touched for the very first time' in every sense of that Madonna song when they step into the Yichud room.
But for the rest of us who don't button our collars to the top, those crazy fun stupid experiences are part of being a normal hormonal human being... no?
But why don't we talk about it more often? (seriously, feel free to post your own stories in the comments section)
Is it because of our innate Jewish guilt? (especially for those of us who have had the idea ingrained in us from childhood that touching/speaking to/looking at boys is a no-no)
Because we don't want our friends sitting around the table to think we're huge sluts?
I should mention (in case you haven't already realized the obvious) that there is a huge difference in 'slut standards' in our community versus the 'goyish velt'. But why do we feel so 'bad' when we really haven't done anything wrong? (or maybe we have)

It just occurred to me that as more of my friends get married, the less anyone will have to worry about being thought of as a slut.... can married people be sluts? do they ever feel guilty for doing what they're not supposed to do? (like keeping the lights on.... just kidding frummies!)

27 comments:

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

"can married people be sluts? do they ever feel guilty for doing what they're not supposed to do?"- Wife swapping, among other things..

SuperRaizy said...

Orthodox girls do generally shy away from sexual encounters much more often than other girls do, so this kinds of revelation does tend to cause jaws to drop. But it's nothing new. When I was in college 20 years ago, there was lots of hooking up going on.
{smiles as she remembers an incident on a bus ride to Washington with a boy she had just met}

Moe said...

You and your friend are are bunch of sluts.

Eiran said...

Slut ? maybe yes,maybe not.

For me,she has self steem problems and because of that,need a lot of guys to feel desired and to improve her self steem.

A. said...

Wow girls I am so jealous of you.

B. said...

anonymous, i think many guys will find maidel's libertarianism quite attractive.

B. said...

I furthermore suspect that that's what she is counting on. To each his/her own. Good luck to all of us.

Anonymous said...

Well, it's a complicated subject. It really depends on where in the orthodox world you grew up in / are currently affiliated with.

For someone coming from a very right-wing background, I think pre-marital hooking up (or at least pre-engaged) will always be a big deal, and hence, kind of taboo. Even if it goes on (which I'm sure it does, to some degree) it's kept on the DL.

But the more left you go, it's treated as less of a big deal (socially and halachically), and to the contrary, I've kind of felt that it's almost expected/encouraged. Of course, then you have to define what 'hooking up' means, and how far are we talking about here, which, like everything else, varies on a spectrum.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to figure out where you stand (it's only normal for someone to find out where they're most comfortable religiously), and, at least in my eyes, a couple of hooking up experiences does not a slut make.

j said...

MM,

I'm sure most girls have had their experiences with boys... but there's a huge differentiation between sex, and the other experiences.

You should clarify to your readers when you're speaking of anything less than sex, for these situations.

What do you mean when you say "those crazy fun stupid experiences"... is that sex or other type of fooling around?

The reason why it's such a big topic is because women have the virginity issue. To many men this is a big deal.. many times a deal breaker if they're religious level is above a certain thresh hold.

I know plenty of guys (MO guys) who ended things with girls when they found out the girl wasn't a virgin. Some people hold to certain standards.

Many girls go into the yichud room having played around before marriage, but not have had sex. Then there are those girls (more than people like to believe) who have had sex before marriage.. and they are frum girls that no one would have suspected.

So while it may be normal for people to experiment and play around a bit, Is it considered normal for a girl who classifies herself as frum (or MO) to have sex before marriage?

If it is normal, then occasionally having sex or sex with boyfriends is normal... and obviously sexing with many partners is just slutyness.

Rabba bar bar Chana said...

I'm a real wild one. I pass my wife the salt shaker directly while she's a niddah!

Ariella said...

Um...

Shomer negia = halacha = breaking it is bad.

It's pretty much that simple.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

Yeah, I'd feel squeamish to marry a girl that's even kissed a guy in the past. I mean, it shows that that she's capable of very 'deviant' behavior...

curious said...

I thought non-sexual shomer negia was a custom, not a halacha?

Knopf Poet said...

These are deep waters my friend that the uninitiated dare not tread. The one who touches, kisses, or hugs a nida or a married woman deserves to be stalked with a stick according to Talmudic holy violence.

הצעיר שלמה בן רפאל לבית שריקי ס"ט said...

curious: Nothing is a "custom". There's a debate about non-sexual contact, some say it's ok some say it's terrible. But "non-sexual" means "without endearment", i.e. more like shaking hands. Kissing is way sexual..

Jeworble said...

The only permitted and even obligatory kissing in the frum society is gratuitous ass kissing.

Anonymous said...

I am, by most standards (within the modern orthodox "machmir" world), a frum girl. I wear all skirts, long sleeves, and G-d willing will cover my hair when I am married.
I am 23 years old and, until around 2 years ago, I was STRICTLY shomeret. And then the pain, and the loneliness, of not being touched really started to break me down. Because for many women, touch is not only sexual, but also very emotional. Human beings need touch and it is quite unnatural for anyone my age not to have that in any capacity.
When I first broke shomer-negiah, it was extremely emotional for me and I cried a lot about it. Since that first time, I have been--let's just say--not quite as strict as I used to be. And the guilt that I feel about it is tremendous and also quite painful. At the same time, the shidduch world has made young women feel objectified. Men have the upper-hand in every sense and the pressure for girls my age is, at times, unbearable.
I believe it is natural for people to reach a breaking point.
Now, I must clarify, that the encounters I've had are all innocent as can be in the "real-world." I'm talking, nothing below-the-belt.
And yet, sometimes the guilt is so hard to endure. It's nice to read a post like this, MM, which deals with such an issue openly. It's nice to feel like I'm not actually a 'slut' and maybe, just human after all.

Maidel said...

for those of you who mentioned the halacha aspect....
i'm not arguing that certain things are in any way 'right' ... just that it's pretty much a fact that most girls do 'things' they're maybe not supposed to... or that maybe make them feel 'dirty' or 'guilty' (no matter how big or small the 'crime').... but a lot of us do those things!
thank anonymous for backing me up!

Anonymous said...

I do not know who you hang around with, but I never, nor have any of my friends behaved in any manner close to what you described. When I get married, my husband will know with full confidence that he is the first man I have ever kissed or touched in anyway. And I do not know why it is so hard to refrain from touching- in a sexual manner or not-until one is married. I am twenty-one and have still managed to control myself.

Anonymous said...

MM is right. Most girls do have some experiences with boys before marriage. It's a fact. These days it's a minority of girls that hold out. The guys that get them are very fortunate.

FrumGirl said...

I wonder what you think about this weeks Dr. Respler article in the Jewish Press. Email me - Frumgirlsblog@gmail.com

kissmeimshomer said...

Awesome post. When I fiirst started hooking up with girls, I realized that most of those "Flatbush" girls were girls who would hook up. It was a shocker that not only Chabad chics would.
Then theres the problem of thinking thing are bad just because Halacha doesn't let you do it. I'm no longer religious so maybe that's why I'm thinking that way, but even if you are religious, breaking Halacha shouldn't mean one is bad.
Check out my latest post "Touched By A Rabbi" at kissmeimshomer.wordpress.com
That is what bad is.

Anonymous said...

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Sarah said...

LOL, I grew up in a super observant family and I couldn't possibly look more Jewish, from the bad (nose) to the good (huge round tits totally out of proportion to the rest of my body). And let me just say this: there are few things I love more than black cock. Every Jewish girl secretly knows black cock is to sex what bacon is to food. And black guys seem to love a little Jewish slut like me (I'm 5'1" and have 32D tits, you do the math) eager to bounce on their thick African dicks. Nobody seems to have any issue with my love for black penis except for my two childhood friends who are conservative (read: RACIST) and can't figure out why a nice little Jewish girl like me loves using all three of her holes to pleasure dark meat. Well, they can call me a slut all they want (I am!) but I'll be the one having fun with the best dicks in the world, the black ones. :D

Rocking Rabbi said...

The problem I see is that it just seems like all you were/are missing is a best friend to give you a hug when needed

Rocking Rabbi said...

"Even if you are religious, breaking Halacha shouldn't mean one is bad" I couldn't agree with you more horny guy you know why because whatever the person does they are not "bad" what they did may be bad but they are just a regular person which made a mistake.

Rocking Rabbi said...

Which may be why people feel so bad when doing these things. Think about it, of the person is truly bad then why would they feel bad doing these things it's only because they are not bad they are good and they slipped and they realize it is wrong that they feel that way. (Just my humble opinion