Wednesday, March 17, 2010

offering to pay on a date

Every restaurant date ends with the same little anxiety...


When the bill comes, what's a girl to do?

Just say 'thanks for a great dinner'?

Would it be nice to offer to pay?

Or is that offensive in some way? (maybe it shows a lack of confidence in his ability to cover the meal)

25 comments:

Sefardi Gal said...

Some feminists may disagree with me, but I think the guy should ALWAYS pay. It's his duty to be the gentleman and treat the female like she's his most important priority at the moment.
If a girl offers, and the guy accepts, I say there's something wrong there.
I have a friend who davka always offers to pay -- just to see what the guy would say. If he allows her to pay, it's a dealbreaker for her.
(she's also not dating shidduch-style, but still...)

Anyway, I'd say the proper procedure is:
1) don't initiate the ordering. Allow the guy to offer. For example, don't ask if you can order dessert...allow him to ask.
2) Don't look at the bill and don't discuss the bill & tip.
3) Before you leave the restaurant/lounge, smile and say thank you.

That's just my take on it. :)

Frum Punk said...

I might get flamed here, but for shidduch dates why should the guy pay it all? He didn't ask you out and he's not hoping to score with you. You were set up by a third party to see if you have things in common. Why should one side owe the other anything out of it? I'm not saying what I do one way or the other, but that's always the way it seemed to me logically.

Plus, there always seem to be complaints about the shortage of men, but when it becomes a major expense to go out on a date that might go nowhere, why take away an incentive? After all, in chareidi society the women are the major breadwinners anyway. Maybe they should pay to take the guy out? :)

Bored Jewish Guy said...

I agree with Sefardi Gal, if the guy lets you pay, there's something wrong. Some guys prefer that the girl asks, just so it doesn't look like she thinks he has to pay for her but I'd rather she just thank me.

Frum punk: Men should want to pay for the date, not b/c they expect to get anything out of her, but to show that they respect her.

shidduchmaven said...

A guy who pays is a Gentleman. All Gentlemen know it's part of the show and dance.

A Lady can offer to pay or cover some of the expense, and while it is appreciated the Gentleman should always politely refuse. This is all just a formality, but breaking the code shows a sign of indecency.

MM, I would suggest that all you really need to do is keep smiling when he pays (as it will enforce his good behavior), and simply thank him outside the restaurant or at the end of the date during the conversation. It'll be very fluid and avoid any awkward moments, also this way he knows you are appreciative.

The Way said...

The woman should offer to split, or at least cover some expenses, tip for dinner or drinks or popcorn for movie etc.

If a man pays entirely its about control and power, a nice euphemism for gentlemanly behavior, or about a man who wants to score by acting nice and sweet. Key word:acting

How is it respectful to pretend you are in the 1950's ant the woman can't pay or even offer to pay?

Bored Jewish Guy said...

The Way: That's ridiculous. I don't mind if a girl offers to pay, but my paying is not about control or power, it also has nothing to do with a woman's ability to pay. Being a gentleman is not about tricking woman into liking us. Respect between the sexes is a two way street, the feminists are planting roadside bombs. I think it's interesting that you're a man and still have such a negative opinion of men, makes me wonder...

The Way said...

Bored, Im not sure what you're wondering about or why. I have no negative opinion about men or women at all. I may have a negative opinion or a positive opinion about a specific man or woman.

And I agree with you, being a gentleman is not about tricking a woman into liking you; its about honesty.

Are you paying for everything on a date because you really really want to? can you afford to do that all the time everytime?

When I invite a client to lunch or dinner, I expect to pay because I issued the invite. When I invite a guy friend to dinner or bar I expect to pay for the same reason.
In both cases, 100% of the time, the client and friend offer to pay something, tip, buy a round, whatever. That's just being decent while at the same time keeping some balance.

There is a time for a woman to act like a child time for a woman to act like an adult. Offering to pay half when invited out is too much, but the tip or some other piece is just common courtesy. This is respect between sexes. Not a feminist issue, just an honest exchange between adults.

It is patently dishonest to refuse the woman to allow her to not chip in for anything. That total refusal is dishonest and a childish version of building relationships. Unless of course you pay for everybody all the time.

Shades of Grey said...

According to Rav Golvicht - the guy should always pay everything, up until engagement. There should even be any splitting of bills, which he colloquially called "Chetzi-chezti" which he followed up with the joke: "What is chetzi-chezti? cheztzi-chezti is schwarma!"

Anonymous said...

"Are you paying for everything on a date because you really really want to? can you afford to do that all the time every time? When I invite a client to lunch or dinner, I expect to pay because I issued the invite. When I invite a guy friend to dinner or bar I expect to pay for the same reason. In both cases, 100% of the time, the client and friend offer to pay something, tip, buy a round, whatever. That's just being decent while at the same time keeping some balance."

The Way, your logic is completely off.

To you a date is the same as inviting a guy friend or a client. Good job buddy way to respect those women.

And yes when you invite a girl out, you pay for everything, because yes you can afford to do that every time. When you can't afford to pay you do something cheaper or less expensive. There are always options.

You do what's in your budget. Figure it out Einstein, it's not rocket science. Never fake you can live at higher standards.

The Way said...

Anon, I don't have to figure it out, I don't have that problem.

I don't want to get into some philosophical argument. My intent was to answer Material's question. And by asking, when many women would not, shows that she is looking for where and how to set her boundries.

So let me give a practical breakdown.

If the man spent the whole night:
a)talking about himself
b)showing off (usually about money)
then he pays the whole thing and you say thanks.

If the man is:
a)creepy or a weirdo
b)married
c)a co-worker
d) has some other disqualifying cause
e)asks how you want to handle the bill
you insist on paying half (unless you're into any of that or just up for a freebie in which case let him pay)

if the guy is:
a)honestly interested in you and listening to you
b)cool and confident
c)going to get a second date
you offer to pay the tip or buy drinks at movie etc.

Usually the guy will refuse anyways, but whether you end up leaving the tip or not, you will feel better about yourself for having expressed that you are an individual and do not expect to be taken care of entirely even if it would be nice sometimes.


Hope this helps and does not trigger any arguments with quotes from rabbis.

Bored Jewish Guy said...

The Way: If you have no negative opinion of men, why would you assume that a man who behaves like a gentleman is "acting" or that it's about control and power?

Yes, I pay b/c I want to and I can afford to pay for whatever activity I choose for a date, otherwise I wouldn't choose it.

When you invite a client or friend to lunch, are you hoping to spend the rest of your life taking care of that person?

The Way said...

I don't know why being a gentleman means you pay for everything all the time and the woman should not even offer to ever chip in even a bit. To me that sounds more like control and power than getting to know an actual person and taking into consideration how they feel about the date, themself, the other person, their boundries etc.

I don't want to take care of anyone for the rest of my life. I do enjoy having a shared committment and life of seperate individuals who are both capable and competant who can both take care of themselves but choose to be together because we want to be together, not because she or I want to be taken care of.

And once you are being taken care of, for the rest of your life, then shouldn't you obey the person taking care of you?

Bored Jewish Guy said...

The Way: First of all, she can offer to chip in, I just wouldn't accept. I'm not saying that she needs to be taken care of or that people get married b/c they need to be taken care of. But, in a relationship, both parties should be taking care of each other in some ways. If a guy is going to be supported financially by his wife, it might be a different story, but I wouldn't consider him a gentleman anyway.

www.thewaytonothing.blogspot.com said...

"First of all, she can offer to chip in, I just wouldn't accept."

See my comment at the end of my multiple choice comments.

"If a guy is going to be supported financially by his wife, it might be a different story, but I wouldn't consider him a gentleman anyway."

So a guy who chooses to be a stay at home dad while the wife goes out and works as, for example, a doctor or lawyer, that guy is not a gentleman?

How do you define gentlemen?

My answer was tailored for a woman who asked a specific question, of where she should set her boundries.

If she felt comfortable always being paid for and just saying thank you she would not have asked the question.

I didn't direct my answers to sephardi gal, for example, because she made it clear where she stands on the issue and these responses to apply to her.

Being a gentlemen also means recognising the uniquness of the individual with whom you are on a date.

Bored Jewish Guy said...

The Way: I believe a gentleman is responsible for taking care of the financial needs of his family. It is possible that the logical thing for him to do is stay home while his wife works, in general I don't think too highly of stay at home dads.

hmm, yet instead of answering her question simply that you think it's good for her to offer to pay something; you decided to attack the character of guys who pay for their dates.

The Way said...

It was not my intention to attack anyone.

My intention was to offer an answer to material's question and point out that many people still are raised with a notion of man and woman that is directly based on the power and control relationships of years ago.

The woman changes her last name why?
You don't think highly of men who choose to be stay at home dads why?

For thousands of years women were property and marriage was a financial contract between men with women as livestock to be traded.

Alot of guy's notions are subconsciously based on thousands of years of power and control behavior.

Again, not attacking, just pointing out historical facts and making them relevant.

aml said...

The guy pays for the first day.

Period.

Call me old fashion, call me non-feminist. Blah. That's the way it works, fair or not. We get childbirth, you get to take out the trash and pay for first dates.

If you can't afford to pay, plan a cheaper date. When I was dating my husband (oh so long ago), we stuck to coffee shops in the beginning. He was too poor and I was too young and dumb to be unimpressed by the lack anything fancy. I just wanted to be with him; I didn't care when, where, or how.

The girl can pay for later dates, especially if she plans them.

Anonymous said...

While I agree with you about the guy paying for the first date.

You're example of women get childbirth is probably not the best. Men get to deal with 9 months of hormonal mad cow disease, some can argue it's equivalent. ;)

frumsatire said...

A guy who lets a girl pay has balls.

A girl who offers to pay and doesn't flinch when actually taken up on it also has balls.

I love how there's this chivalry when it comes to shidduch dating. Seriously speaking if there are so many more girls than guys, those girls waiting around for dates should pay for us. I knwo tons of guys who simply don't date because it's a pain in the ass and the girls make it worse. They demand you pick them up, decide on a place and then pay - jeez what's in it for us. As frum punk mentioned we are not thinking of scoring (actually we are thinking of it - but we know it's just a pipe dream - you people never want to mess up your makeup)

Of course I don't really believe in gender based roles - besides for the one's prescribed by bodily function.

Maidel said...

wow - didn't expect that THIS would be so controversial...

honestly, wouldn't mind paying a toll if he let me...

BUT - i might think he was a cheapskate if he did....

%Shocked% said...

I'm %Shocked% (ok, ok, I'm sorry, so that was lame)! I would be surprised if a girl offered to pay for anything on a date. Until there were some commentators saying otherwise, I would have thought the answers to this post would've been pithy as could be. I agree with sefardi gal's take on it, but I don't mind turning the bill/tip into a game for her to figure out. I hear the logic of those arguing that the girls should at least offer, but as a guy, I would never accept. Ya ya, there are more guys than girls, girls are more desperate to get married, blah blah blah. C'mon, who are you kidding? 1) You (male) want to get married. 2) You (male), hopefully, will be the breadwinner in the family. You're taking her out to see if you're going to pay for everything she ever buys for the rest of her life (hehe, awesome way of looking at dating). It sets the mood of the guy being in a charge in a monetary sense, which is the way it usually is. Why does the guy always pick up the girl in a car (even if it's borrowed)? Why can't it be the other way around or have them just meet up somewhere? It sets the tone of the date and the relationship. I'm not a complete chauvinist, but the beginning should start off with the sense of who is "in charge" of the monetary aspect of the relationship.

Maidel said...

shocked -im not sure i like that last part - 'control' of finances should be equal!

%Shocked% said...

Agreed, everything should be discussed and worked out together, but practically, the guy as I wrote, is hopefully going to be the breadwinner, therefore the finances fall into his area of responsibilities. Control of the kitchen isn't equal usually is it? Finances is a responsibility usually, usually, taken care of by the guy. Paying the bills for one, is usually done by the guy.

As well, I put the in charge part in quotations for a reason lol. I didn't mean it in terms of control, rather the one who HAS the money (once again, if he's the one supporting the family, he has the money).

Rocking Rabbi said...

It may not be my place to speak over here because I do generally pay for most people most of the time because I don't really save I spend.
But that aside I feel the line between genders got really blurred and mayb a bit too much.
I feel it depends on the life your planing on spending together if your intial plan is that she is gonna be a stay at home mom and your gonna work and provide then there is no reason for her to offer to pay because this is in a way a glimpse into the future and your gonna be supporting her all the way.
But on the other hand if you plan on having a two income household (meaning she has two jobs(just kidding)) then maybe she should offer to pay a bit.
This is me just friend to understand both sides of the fence my personal opinion is that it is the mans job to provide and we all know that jewdiesm is kinda based around the home and that is the place for a woman yes you may say it's a very 1950s way of thinking but say what you want I still believe we have been made different because we are different god didn't make darker people in hotter places and lighter skinned people in colder places for no reason every person place and thing is different because it freakin different sorry for getting a bit hyped up but a man is a man and lady is.. Yup you guessed it a lady so why can't everyone just do their job like the girl be charming and the man pay for it and if it even crosses his mind that she should pay there is something wrong if he can't afford it then don't take her there take her somewhere cheaper

Rocking Rabbi said...

It may not be my place to speak over here because I do generally pay for most people most of the time because I don't really save I spend.
But that aside I feel the line between genders got really blurred and mayb a bit too much.
I feel it depends on the life your planing on spending together if your intial plan is that she is gonna be a stay at home mom and your gonna work and provide then there is no reason for her to offer to pay because this is in a way a glimpse into the future and your gonna be supporting her all the way.
But on the other hand if you plan on having a two income household (meaning she has two jobs(just kidding)) then maybe she should offer to pay a bit.
This is me just friend to understand both sides of the fence my personal opinion is that it is the mans job to provide and we all know that jewdiesm is kinda based around the home and that is the place for a woman yes you may say it's a very 1950s way of thinking but say what you want I still believe we have been made different because we are different god didn't make darker people in hotter places and lighter skinned people in colder places for no reason every person place and thing is different because it freakin different sorry for getting a bit hyped up but a man is a man and lady is.. Yup you guessed it a lady so why can't everyone just do their job like the girl be charming and the man pay for it and if it even crosses his mind that she should pay there is something wrong if he can't afford it then don't take her there take her somewhere cheaper