Tuesday, February 2, 2010

keeping your woman satisfied

WARNING - this post is for mature readers only. If you're gonna be immature, at least giggle as you read - no hate mail please.

Here's the answer to something I bet all of you boys were wondering about.
Yes, frum girls talk about s$x.

For most frum single girls, the discussions usually involve a lot of speculation mixed in with obgyn horror stories. If a frum single girl's lucky, she gets a little more info from a less frum friend (and maybe even gets to live vicariously through her).

If she's really lucky, she's got a friend who's already crossed over to the married side who's willing to TALK.
Not all married friends are happy to dish about their s$x lives. Some married friends become too private to even ask you for a pad when they need one. Other married friends are willing to give you the scoop about only one little event- the wedding night (usually another horror story).

I happened to have get into a convo with a married friend who didn't mind talking, but her approach was more 'Little Midrash Says' than 'Sex and the City'. I don't think any of us minded - we were more surprised that she was willing to talk about it at all.

Anyhow - somehow it came out that her kallah teacher told her that it wasn't tznius for a woman to initiate - and that a woman cannot refuse her husband. 


Two facts that I've never heard in my entire life. Moreover, both ideas go totally against everything I've ever learned about Judaism and taharas hamishpacha. Isn't there some kind of clause in the Ketuba that says that it's a husband's obligation to please his wife (and no similar obligation for the woman)?

Maybe I should've posted on CalmKallahs.....


frumsatire said...

Kallah Class teachers should attend some sort of university to become trained - you always hear stories about what they teach and in the end you just do what feels right.

You can pretty much do whatever you want.

Anonymous said...

That kallah teacher obviously has a more chassidic approach. It's just as ridiculous as not having female family members walking down the isle at a wedding because it's not snius as everyone will be focusing their attention on them. (true school of thought in some of the bais yacov schools)

and certainly a woman can refuse her husband, there are many examples through history where the women in communities withheld (by refusing to go to the mikvah) in order to force their husbands/communities do to certain things. Google research.

(If I'm not mistaken there was recently a community where the women stopped going to the mikvah because there was an unfortunate situation where this guy left his wife and refused to give her a 'get', and until the men of the community would force him to sign the women refused to go to the mikvah.)

As for women initiating, they must have confused single or non-married women :p... clearly in the privacy of the home/bedroom there is nothing wrong with a woman arousing her husband. I believe you could even find several examples in chumash of the women going to their men.

Bored Jewish Guy said...

I have heard that the girl is not allowed to ask for sex, that is not the same thing as initiating which I'm pretty sure is perfectly normal. The problem is that for some reason the frum world doesn't believe in educating single people about these things. The Chosson and Kallah teachers have way too much influence IMO, I've heard some ridiculous stories about things they mess up.

Hersh said...

I think you're thinking about Lysistrata.

Warren Burstein said...

Isn't there some kind of clause in the Ketuba that says that it's a husband's obligation to please his wife

Not as far as I know. Here's a copy in Aramaic and English, maybe you can find it there.

The Torah obligates a husband to "onah" (Exodus 21:10) which is understood in halachic sources to mean that he has to sleep with her (they even discuss how often, for example, see here - http://www.chabad.org/dailystudy/rambam.asp?tDate=12/26/2009) but I am not aware of any source obligating him to bring her to orgasm. If I'm wrong, I would appreciate being corrected.

Mystery Woman said...

The woman is not supposed to ask for sex outright. That's not considered tznius. But there are plenty of other ways to initiate.

Ariella said...

Wrong on both counts.

It is considered somewhat untznius for a woman to go up to her husband and say, "I want sex right now!" but the truth is, it's not a huge deal and whatever works for you, works for you in the privacy of your own home.

The second thing is 100% NOT TRUE, FALSE. There is NOT halachic obligation ANYWHERE that says a woman cannot refuse her husband. Period. End of story.

Hearing stories like this really upsets me because I had a similar situation with my own kallah teacher, and it really made it hard for me in the beginning of my marriage. She actually told me that "she NEVER fights with her husband" and looked shocked when I told her my chosson and I had already had a few tiffs (nothing major, but still). She also told me that a woman should "try her hardest not to" (meaning, don't) say no to her husband, ever. I said, what if I am tired? And she said, TAKE A NAP OR GET A CLEANING LADY.

My mother got her for me and she didn't know what she was doing. I hold no responsibility.

Furthermore, she started off the kallah class saying, "I teach all different types of kallahs, I am only going to tell you the BASIC halacha, and then some chumras that are optional." Of course, half of what she told me my chosson turned right around and said, "We don't do this....or this....or this..." It was crazy.

So yeah. Have a bad kallah teacher can really screw you over. Be very, very careful. I don't think they really realize how much influence they have over your expectations of a sexual relationship. It took me awhile before my husband and I were able "re-teach" me.

nmf #7 said...

Hmm. Both counts are wrong...but in some twisted way, I could see where a girl might get that idea.

You can't ask outright for intimacy, but you can hint it in any way you like.
You can refuse to be intimate- but you have to have a reason why. (All things in life should be done because of a reason- not just 'cause') Kallah teachers would probably say that there should be a reason- and some girl probably heard that to mean that she can't ever say no.
Find a good one when you iy"H reach that point- that's what I'll say.

Cheryl said...

No matter what your kallah teachers teaches, I strongly believe that after you and your chatan have learned, you sit down and compare notes and decide which things are for you. You also need to ask what's halacha and what's chumra and what's just "not preferred."

Anonymous said...

What could a "Kallah teacher" possibly teach? It sounds really wierd.

Other than counting days, mikvah, etc. What? Sex? Its not rocket science, a girl is better off gettign advice from friends than a middle aged lady.

Bored Jewish Guy said...

"Sex? Its not rocket science, a girl is better off gettign advice from friends than a middle aged lady."

I completely disagree, both boys and girls should be taught about sex in far more detail than most of their friends will be comfortable talking about. If you're not going to teach them in school then Chosson and Kallah teachers are necessary.

I'm a single, shomer negiah guy so I'm not an expert but one of my married friends told me some things are "completely assur". A different friend went to a Rav and asked if the same "assur" things were permitted, the Rav said basically if your wife wants to do those things you do them.

IMO, it's important that the chosson and kallah are taught the same stuff and if they don't like what they're being told they ask a Rav for a better teacher.

Anonymous said...

As a single woman I've never actually met a kallah teacher. However I have heard from most of my friends what they've been taught. Each kallah teacher has such a different way of teaching things and a good one will make sure to inform you when minhagim can differ and to discuss it with your chosson/husband. And man have I heard some horror stories.

I have heard that a woman is not supposed to ask for sex outright. And the reasoning behind that is that since a man is required to please his wife he can't refuse her if she asks outright. (I have a feeling your friend or her kallah teacher may have gotten this mixed up and switched it around)

Lost And Not Yet Found said...

Every Kallah Teacher teaches differently. If you're lucky you'll get a good one. Either way, it's for you and your chosson/husband to discuss and come up with something that is comfortable for both of you. It's not all black and white rules.

Anonymous said...

I went to a REALLY frum kallah teacher, who didn't really say much besides for Halacha, but she did encourage initiation,
"Your husband wants to feel wanted too" she said.

You're friend must have gone to some uber frum, chassidish teacher...

Tom said...

that kallah teacher is basically making it acceptable to rape your wife!

Anonymous said...

From a secular point of view - in public schools, in classes like "sex ed" the only things they teach are things like how to be protected, etc - from the non-married, sexually-active point of view.

the only things I guess a kallah teacher can teach are certain laws pertaining to intimacy. Other than that, I cant imagine what they could tell a young girl about sex.

About guys, other than laws/rules from, I cant imagine what a "chosson teacher" could teach, either.

But, sex *on its own* really cant be taught by lessons. Every couple just needs to practice at it.

Bored Jewish Guy said...

If you think nothing needs to be taught, I suggest you read some of the posts on CalmKallahs. A lot of them are probably written by teenaged boys pretending to be kallahs but there is clearly a lot of misinformation and confusion about sex in the frum community. At the very least a chosson/kallah teacher should help manage their expectations so they don't freak out when the inevitable wedding night problems come up.

Cheryl said...

My kallah teacher taught a little about the beauty of taharat hamishpacha, spent a lot of time on counting the days on the calendar, the process of determining that you're ready to count your 7 clean days and then actual mikvah. At the end, she spent a little bit of time discussing the wedding night so the girls wouldn't be freaked out (this was a group class). Basically discussing a man's body and how it works.

AH said...

As the first anonymous poster says "I believe you could even find several examples in chumash of the women going to their men." Leah went to Yaakov, the Gemara discusses this. It's a good thing...

Married 15+ yrs said...

Re: The parameters of the mitzvah of Onah

There is a wonderfully detailed description of the mitzvah in Chapter 7 of the book "Marital Intimacy" by Rabbi Avrohom Peretz (Dr. Carey) Friedman.

You can read it online at Google Books:

Sample quotes:
"'The parameters of the mitzvah of Onah that the Sages established are designed to satisfy the wife's desire.' (Ravad)"

"A husband is required by Torah law to learn, know and do what will give his wife sexual pleasure."

Maidel said...

shouldn't the OU or some other jewish org publish some kind of booklet for men & women - just to kind of set standards about what is taught?

marired 15+ yrs said...

Re: Whether or not it is tznius [sic] for the wife to initiate

Of course the wife could initiate. What is not tzniusdik is for her to demand it EXPLICITLY. The ideal way is for her to let him know that she is interested in discreet ways and it is his OBLIGATION to be on the lookout for these hints and to act on them. It is only if he "cannot not take a hint" that she can -- and should -- ask him for it explicitly.

Relevant quote from "Marital Intimacy" by Rabbi Avraham Peretz (Dr. Carey) Friedman:

p. 75:
"'And if...he realizes that she is enticing him and trying to please him and adorning herself for him so that he should notice her--he must approach her sexually.' (Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 240:1)"

p. 76:
"'The main mitzvah of Onah is when the husband sees that his wife desires to be intimate with him...This obligation is a full Torah obligation...Our Sages explained the verse "and he may not diminish her conjugal rights" to mean that he is required to please his wife when he sees that she desires him.' (Igrot Moshe, Even HaEzer pt. 3, chap. 28)"

p. 79:
"Ran: 'She behaves lovingly:' She invites him with appeasing words and behavior, like Leah who only invited Yaakov into her tent but did not explicitly, verbally demand intimacy from him.' (Nedarim 20)"

Further on p. 79:
"This feature of the mitzvah of Onah (the obligation placed on the husband to be alert to any indication or nuance from his wife that she desires intimacy) is, of course, intended to aid and benefit a woman -- not to thwart her or prevent her from communicating her desire for intimacy. Accordingly, in such cases, for example, where a husband fails to correctly discern and decipher the signals that have been sent his way, a wife is allowed to express, openly and modestly, her request for intimacy."

p. 80:
"It is a grievous crime to withhold intimacy from a wife who has discreetly and modestly intimated her desire for her husband's attention, and the Rabbis are unequivocal and unreserved in their condemnation of a husband guilty of such cruelty or neglect."

Married 15+ yrs said...

Re: Whether or not a wife can refuse her husband:

The statement that a wife should not (note NOT "cannot") refuse her husband is meant to "even the playing field": As I posted earlier, a husband has a mitzvah of Onah, which effectively does not allow him to refuse his wife's advances. This obligation on the wife to not refuse him is just meant to parallel his obligation to her.

Quote from "Marital Intimacy" by Rabbi Avraham Peretz (Dr. Carey) Friedman:

p. 80:
"'...[T]hey are formally obligated to each other in matters or intimacy, since they married each other for this reason. On his part, beside this formal obligation, he is subject to the mitzvah of Onah; on her part, in contrast, she is not subject to the mitzvah of Onah, but she is formally obligated to him.' (Rashba, Nedarim 15b)"

p. 81:
"'It is a sin for a woman to delay immersing in the mikveh in order to afflict her husband....' (Beit Yosef to Tur Yoreh Deah 197)"

Married 15+ yrs said...

One last comment:

The mitzvah of Onah is not just for a husband to please his wife physically -- though that is a part of the mitzvah. rather...

"In general terms, the mitzvah of Onah requires that a husband satisfy his wife's needs, both physical and emotional, for intimacy.

A husband fulfills the mitzvah of Onah when he shows his wife that he loves her and desires her, and that he wants to please her."

-From "Marital Intimacy" by Rabbi Avraham Peretz (Dr. Carey) Friedman, p. 76

ah said...

marired 15+ yrs thanks for adding more info about Yaakov and Leah.

Dude with hat (aka BTS) said...

If there could be some hate - that's to people who don't know but love to blob in comments.
Though I am really happy there are enough clever people to bring the books and quotes from them to explain their position. Agreed 100%.
If these quotes aren't enough just go ahead and open Kitzur Shulchan Aruch which clearly explains many basics - there's a lot of interesting stuff to read - whole book, not just those 5-10 chapters.

On the other side that's why every person should get their own chosson/kallah teacher - to get actual and correct info instead of rumors and misinterpreted info from friends. People tend not to hear well, miss things, make up what was not said, add what's not necessary and say things in not clear language.